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17th September, 2025 - Webinar replay

In conversation with Greg Simpson - top tips to get your name in the newspapers

Phil Bray  

Good morning, everybody, and we’re back from our summer break. Welcome to our first Yardstick webinar of the autumn. And we have got a fantastic guest to kick us off today. Greg Simpson from Press For Attention, Greg, welcome. Thank you for coming. 

Greg Simpson

Morning. Good to be here.

Phil Bray

Where do we find you today? Looks like you got some interesting equipment in the background. 

Greg Simpson

It looks interesting. It’s merely the smoke and mirrors of PR, Phil. I’ve got through some recordings this afternoon, so I’m psyching myself up into doing 10 videos in a row rather than picking at them, because otherwise it won’t get done. 

Phil Bray

So we’re your warm up act today.

Greg Simpson

Yeah, yeah. I’ll gargle with some water later, and I’ll just crack straight on. 

Phil Bray

Yeah, that sounds good to me. So as the screen says, got Greg with us, top tips to get your name in the newspapers. So for those of you who maybe don’t know who Greg is, Greg’s an author, a PR expert and a public speaker, and the founder of the wonderfully named business Press For Attention. It’s a double meaning. 

Greg Simpson

It’s an ironing business originally, Phil. 

Phil Bray

Very good and as we work through today, normal guest format for the Yardstick webinar, Q and A, I’m gonna ask a few questions. Gonna shut up, and Greg’s going to impart his wisdom to it. But if you have any questions, do put them in the chat. Do put them in the Q and A, Dan will curate those. And Dan, do you want to explain anything else about today and what happens afterwards? 

Dan Campbell 

Yes, absolutely. So hope we’re all having a nice week. So as usual, let me tell you all the house rules. Don’t worry, there’s not many of them, and they’re quite easy to follow. So the first is that we encourage lots of participation in the form of questions and comments, so you’ll absolutely get out of today what you put in. So be part of the conversation. Don’t be shy, pop up and say hello and say your piece. So to do that, you can use the Q and A box and the chat function, so I’ll monitor both, and we’ll read things out at regular intervals as we go along, and we’ll try and make sure that everyone’s questions do get answered by the time we all say goodbye. Another rule, this is absolutely a safe space, so there’s no such thing as a silly question. Greg might disagree, but I can say that now, can’t I? So ask it. Don’t sit on it. I promise you other people will be glad you asked, and you will be too, and that’s the most important thing right. Now let me answer one question nice and early. So we are recording this, so we’ll have a link to that recording, plus any resources that get mentioned that’ll get sent out later today. Of course, we’ve got Abi to thank for that, who worked diligently behind the scenes to make that happen, right? I think that’s enough housekeeping and enough of me. So let me pass us over to Phil and Greg, who are going to be teaching us how to get into the papers, with the important caveat, for good reasons. Greg. Phil over to you. 

Phil Bray  

Cheers, Dan. Thanks for that. Yeah, it’s a very good point, actually. So the audience today Greg is mostly made up of financial services people, financial advisers, financial planners, and organisations that sell their services to financial advisers, financial planners, and there are probably two types of press coverage they could get. They could get coverage in the personal finance press. The Times at the weekend, the Telegraph, the Mail, etc, the weekend, and bizarrely, on Wednesdays, Wednesday seems to be a day for personal finance news and then also the trade press, New Model Adviser, Money Marketing, Professional Adviser, FT Adviser, etc. Let’s just set the scene by talking to Greg about some of the benefits of getting coverage in those publications.

Greg Simpson 

I mean, really, it comes to any publications and anything. When you’re looking at PR, it comes down to trust, because we all know in marketing, there’s no like and trust mantra, and I think people tend to focus on PR as being the no bit, but you can become known through any kind of marketing. I can stick a billboard outside right now, and you can become known very quickly. It doesn’t mean that you’ll become liked, and it doesn’t mean you become trusted. So if you kind of think it back the other way, “how do we become trusted?” That is the benefit of trying to get coverage either in the personal finance press or the trade press. But I think when it comes to separating them off, because I’ve worked with a few mortgage brokers as well, and when they’ve kind of done something about, let’s say they’re growing the firm new appointments, and I’d say, “Oh yeah, great, let’s we’ll do a story for your local and regional business press around where you are, that’ll show you’re a growing firm, and the high net worth individuals will spot that”. And then, of course, there’s your trade press, and there’s often a bit of pushback on that, and they go, “what’s the point of that?” The point of that is, this will get you more of those talented people, A players follow, A players. So if you’re trying to attract more of these high caliber individuals, the same as if you’re a football team, it helps if you’ve got a star player in there in the first place. So that is why you start to do it. But also, again, it’s this trust thing. So if you go on someone’s website, and I’m sure, I hope you’ve told a lot of your clients to do this. If they’re playing this PR game, there will be something like “as featured in” somewhere on their website. So if it says “as featured in Sunday Times”, and there’s a link to the logo, and you click and go to the article, it all adds up. If it says “as featured in” and it’s your trade press that’s your peers saying that you’re really good when you know your onions. So again, it’s this trust thing. It’s positioning.

Phil Bray  

It is somewhat, in some ways, the trade press a stepping stone to the personal finance press. 

Greg Simpson  

It can be, yes, if you look at it this way, I used to be a journalist, so I look at all things with a certain amount of skepticism. When I get something in my inbox, it’s that “really” bit because let’s say it’s come on the press release, and there’s hundreds have come in, and an expert says this. If the expert can show that they’ve been featured in the industry Bible, as a journalist receiving that if I’m in a personal finance thinking, “I’ve got that little bit of trust”. So you don’t have to get in a Telegraph, get in The Times or The Daily Mail or to get The Daily Express. You can use it as this kind of first day at school, kind of, pass. It gets you in, and you’re now trusted. And that journalist can go, “well, clearly someone thinks this person’s legit. I’ll go further and I’ll have a proper look at it”. So yeah, I would absolutely look at it. I hadn’t thought of looking at it that way. But that would be how receiving a journalist in the personal finance press could work really well. 

Phil Bray

And journalists move, don’t they? I’ve seen a few move from the trade press, the personal finance press. And once you’re a trusted contact with a journalist, they keep trusting you, don’t they? Until you let them down. But if you stood when they’re in the trade press, if they move over to the personal finance press, then that should be a bridge as well.

Greg Simpson

It should. It’s always the same thing and people seem to forget this. When they say, actually is this meeting titled PR or public relations? I can’t remember.

Phil Bray

But today we’re trying to get in the newspapers.

Greg Simpson

But when I say, “oh, PR public relations”, people forget that it’s the relations bit. They just focus on the PR bit. But it’s all about relations. And this is what we call media relations, which is part of public relations, which is the talking to the journalists. If you’re trying to have a relationship with somebody, it’s not meant to be. “I’ll send them an email every now and then when I want something. And fingers crossed, that works brilliantly”. You would be finding reasons to send them emails other than about yourself. So “saw this and thought of you”, in the same way that you would do to a dream client. It’s not always going to be “buy my stuff”, or if you see them on social media, and then we’ll probably come on to this. You’re not always going to go, “yeah, great point, Phil. PS, is my blog about it?” It’s like, “oh no man, don’t be doing that”.You’d be liking and sharing their stuff and helping to promote them as well if you were playing it as a PR move, rather than just going, “oh look, now there’s someone to kind of go up”. 

Phil Bray

Yeah, I get that, by the way, everybody who’s listening, and I’m not sure if we’ve got a problem with the chat. Can just someone put a message in the chat to see if it’s working? I think we’ve got it set up correctly, but I’m not entirely sure, so just a couple of people put hello in the chat for me, and let’s see whether that comes through. It’s coming through. Thank you, Max. Thank you Isabel. Cheers, Scott and thank you, Nick. So if we’ve established that the benefits of being in the trade press, the personal finance press, a lot of it is down to down to trust. Let’s talk about two ways that people on this call can get themselves in the papers. And I think my view has always been that you can get in as a kind of talking head at the end of an article. Or you can try and place a story, tell a journalist something they don’t know, issue a press release. Just talk to me about the different ways of getting in the newspapers. 

Greg Simpson

Well, the talking head thing, it could be at the start of the article, the middle of the article. You’ve got to think about it this way, if a journalist is sitting there right now and they are working on a feature for three weeks down the line, three months down the line there, what they need to do is prove what they’re writing about. So they can’t just go well, they could just go and google it and put it in ChatGPT. There’s a waffly version of events, but what they need is the proof where they go “and according to Bob Smith, this is not the case, or is the case. And here’s Rachel Martin, and Rachel’s got a different opinion”. They’re always looking for editorial balance. It’s the same if you listen to the radio on the way into work or something, let’s say you’re on Five Live or Radio Four, they will always bring in, hopefully an expert and also members of the public, for mainly to irritate me, with their one sided views of whatever the debate is. But they are craving editorial balance all the time, and the way that you play this card is you become an asset to them. So rather than going “Aha, we are going to get in there”. You’re going to start saying, “we are going to become incredibly useful to Bob”. And the way we’re going to become incredibly useful to Bob is we’re going to learn about what Bob does and what Bob’s challenges are, and make ourselves often very, not very, very, very, very visible, but constantly there and on the radar. So when the time is right, Bob goes, “I know who I need” in the same way that I want to put a light fitting up in my lounge, and it’s a very, very high lounge. I am not going up a 12 foot ladder. So the local electrician, who hasn’t actually done an EPR, but could do if you thought about it, is who I’m going to go to, because he’s my go to guy. And it’s getting into that position where you become that talking head, because someone goes, “well, I’ve seen I’ve seen them do this piece, or I saw something on LinkedIn. It was a really good piece, actually”, and that you might even have sent it to them on LinkedIn, direct message them, but with a caveat in there that you said, “hi Phil, this piece here reminds me of a piece you wrote last year, and I thought you might want to see it rather than do what a lot of people do or attempt to do, which is the blind copy version of everything and hope that someone picks it up by throwing bait on the water”. Doesn’t work very well with customers. It certainly doesn’t work very well with journalists. And then, with regards to the more proactive approach, which is “we are going to place something”, you’ve got to start looking at it as, “where are we going to place it?”  Where we know it will be welcomed by the journalist. And it’ll be welcomed by the journalist because it’s something they haven’t written about or haven’t done for a while. Rather than going, you wouldn’t try to place a pension story in the mortgage section, but people do this. They go, “Oh, they write about finance. They’ll probably like it”, but that shows you haven’t really done your research. So you need to be absolutely spot on with the journalist you’re after. And you can have 10 of them, and you’ll go after them, each individual one, but you’ll pitch them individually. Because I know it sounds like a faff, but this is when it actually works, and you give them something genuinely useful. And the way that you normally would try to do that would be, we’ve done some research, so you’ve got genuine data. And when we do that, you can’t go and say, “we asked 14 people and they all agreed it was a bad thing. And here’s our story”. So you’re looking for what I would call at least the pan 10 small print, bottom of the advert, number of correspondence, and you can prove that. “We found that eight out of 10 people are worried about savings in later life, nine out of 10 first time buyers”. So you’ve got this stuff to prove it up, and you’re offering them almost a package of content now they may well then go off and go, “Yeah, this is great Phil. I love this, but what I need to do is go and ask someone else about what they think”, because they are not there, sorry to break it to you, to promote you. They’re there to inform and entertain their readers, and if you can help them do that, they’ll be like, “loving it”, but they may still go “I just need one more person just to either agree or disagree”. But they’re not doing it for mischief purposes. They’re doing it so it doesn’t become an advert, and their commercial team doesn’t look over their shoulder and go, “why’re you giving them a full page and just literally taking it chapter and verse, copy and paste”.

Phil Bray  

So when I talk to advisers, planners, business owners about this, and we do at Yardstick from time to time in the trade, send out press releases and place stories in the trades, and we do it on behalf of Yardstick as well, but you’re talking to the business owner, and they’ll say, “let’s do 10 press releases and get it out to 10”, thinking that that’ll actually get more coverage than trying to place it as an exclusive with one journalist. Just talk to us about that balance, Greg.

Greg Simpson  

You can do 10 press releases, but they won’t be very good, I suspect, because you’ll dilute whatever there was one really good one in there, or two. Over the year, you can do 10 absolutely, but I wouldn’t go, “oh, it’s October, and I watched that PR going on the Yardstick webinar. Let’s start cracking on this PR. So what would be better than one, two, and what’s better than two? 10. They won’t be as good as they could be compared to when you focused. And the way to focus it, is based on the core topic that is breaking or is coming soon. There is that budget thing I’ve heard about. There is lots of stuff going on that you need to think ahead of and then go again in my head. So I think of journalists in a way that I market as well. So I’ve got suspects, prospects, leads, customers and clients. That’s my marketing, right? It’s the same with journalists. So I’ve got to do a campaign this afternoon for a client who is doing very bespoke tours to Cuba. Now, not a lot of journalists do that because of passport troubles. If you get a stamp, it means, as a journalist, you may struggle to go to the USA or so they think. So our guy is going to become their asset, and we’re going to theme it around spies, and it’s going to be all very good fun, but what we need to do is find a way of making that useful to them. So we’re going to go, suspects are people who are writing about off the beaten track kind of breaks, then prospects would be they have written about Cuba before, but it was ages ago. Leads is when you start to get into them, and then customers is when they’ve taken one story off you, and then clients is when they become a regular. So if you can think of journalists that way, that will help.

Phil Bray

And how can you use social media you mentioned earlier? How can you use social media to get on a journalist’s radar? Because so much of it sounds like it’s about being a trusted source for a journalist where they know they can come to and get something, I assume, interesting, quickly, timely, accurate, etc. How do you make sure that you are on a journalist’s radar? And how can you use social media to do that? Since you mentioned it earlier,  

Greg Simpson

I’d do it in the same way they would do, again, assuming that you’re using social media in the same way that I would, which is, if I’m trying to target a dream client, I will follow them. So if I was on if I was trying to get hold of you guys, I’d start stalking you on LinkedIn, right? I’d be on X, but I wouldn’t go straight in and start trying to pitch you based on a poster you made. I would more likely say something like and I did a couple of months ago. “Oh, look, Marcus, how cool”, because I know one of your speakers, and I’d show that I know and that I’m aligned with the way you’re thinking. And it’s the same with journalists, in that you don’t just blindly like every post they do. You add value to it in the same way that you would do if you were doing it for customers. But people seem to think that journalists are a different breed, like I’m a human being. I’m reformed now, I was a journalist, but I’m still a human being. And people seem to think journalists are either on this pedestal up here or some evil, dark force, if you remember that they’re sat there on a deadline and they are all just a human being who has got to pick up the kids from school after work, and suddenly you said, “great point about such and such here” from I don’t know why. It’s always Bob or Barbara, and you share that across your network, you’re now becoming useful to them without being, without sucking up, basically. And you’re then slowly, slowly, slowly getting on their radar. Now, if you start putting out posts and you start tagging journalists, which will be tempting if they’re in your market and your your absolute ballpark, I wouldn’t then go “aha, using the idea this”, this power of 10 thing you were saying before, I wouldn’t tag 10 of them in the same post. Because what you’re effectively doing there is the same thing that people I know who try to do their NPR or blind copy 50 journalists on the same press release. I think they’re being very clever, whereas what they’re actually doing is being nothing to anybody. If you were to do the 10 tags on social, typically on X with journalists, they’re all going to go, “hold on you’re talking to everybody. I don’t feel very special right now”. So it’s, again it’s finding the thing that is where they are going to go  “oh my god, I left the thought of me there because”, it’s nice to be recognised for what you’re doing. I assume you use most of the social media platforms as Yardstick. 

Phil Bray

Last weekend, I deleted my X account. Yes, at Yardstick, we’re still using X.

Greg Simpson

But yes as Yardstick is an agency, and anyone who’s trying to reach out to journalists, you can lurk on x. You don’t have to interact on it. And I use X, I still call it Twitter. I don’t care. I use Twitter because it’s a brilliant research place for journalists, and that’s where you’ll find people. I won’t look now because I have to look at my phone. I can guarantee if I do a certain search on Twitter, there’ll be someone looking for an expert on whatever it is. That’s where most journalists still go to push out to anybody out there who’s paying attention that they’re looking for someone to comment, and it becomes a really good lead gen source in terms of opportunities to comment.

Phil Bray

So it sounds like it’s a three step process. Find the journalists that are relevant to you, and also find them in terms of where they hang out. Make yourself useful to them, and don’t stalk them and be weird. 

Greg Simpson

Well, you can stalk them, but don’t let them know, because anyone knows if you’re being weird, but you need to lurk in the shadows to an extent and stalk them from afar, but then you’re not suddenly sending them flowers to their doorstep the next day. That would be weird. You’re going to gently show that you care about what they’ve done, because you’re in the same market. Now, when in PR, it’s quite different because I work with 14 different people, so I can’t be massively loving everything all these journalists are doing, but they know I’m in PR, so I’ve got someone who I’m working with. That’s why I’m following them. But when it’s you and you’re doing it for your own brand, it’s blatantly obvious why you’re hovering around their profile, liking this stuff, but you’re not sucking up, and you are sharing what they’ve written to your audience as well. So you’re not just trying to make it a one way thing like me, me, me. You’re saying “this is great piece here” in The Times or in Modern Marketing, or whatever else it would be, Professionals Adviser that you’re saying to your audience, “this is really good stuff”, and then you’d add something in there as well, or you’d write a blog about it, tagging them, giving them the credibility to it as well, and adding your to your two pence to the story as well. 

Phil Bray

And once you are on a journalist radar, how do you stay there? What are the top tips? 3,4,5, things to stay on a journalist’s radar?

Greg Simpson  

Don’t be pitching them all the time. So again, if this was a customer or a client, you would probably know their birthday, or you’d know the football team they support. So let’s say he knew the football team they supported, and they’d had a horror show at the weekend. I would be tempted, depending on how your relationship is going, to mock them, but privately, but just generally, I would say, “Happy Monday. Sorry about the weekend, and nothing you can do about that”. However, the good news is I’m writing a piece on this, which I’m sure you’ll be delighted about, and I would make it a, “I’m pitching you, but let’s make let’s pretend that I’m not pitching you”, and it’s fun, because this is a relationship, and we’re being friendly about it, rather than this cold “hi, Greg. Hope you’re having a great day. Wanted to reach out with this, another anodyne email intro, and here’s a press release below. Hope you can use it with a smiley face”. It’s not very relationship building, is it? So you’re constantly finding ways to either add value to them or be on their radar without trying to sell stuff. So yeah, that might be that you’re just joining in on whatever they’re up to on social, that you’re sharing the stuff they’ve written, you might even reach out to them to say, “hi Nick, read your piece last week, I was wondering, where do we stand in terms of sharing this in my newsletter to my clients? Is it best if I just share the link or has your team got like restrictions around that? Now it may well be that there’s no restrictions they can possibly have because you’re going to give them a link, you’re going to screen grab it, you’re going to do all that sort of stuff copyright wise. But the fact that you’ve asked shows that you give a shit. It’s trying to turn it away from what people keep thinking this PR thing is, “which is use my stuff”, which is building relationships and going, I’m one of you. I’m with you. I’m part of your your team, Mr. And Mrs. Journalist, when the time is right, maybe you’ll use my stuff not “please use this one and this one, and this one, this one, this one”. 

Phil Bray

And how much of a part does it have to play being timely in terms of providing your comments, sticking to the word count, and being interesting. Scott’s got a question here about being sensationalist, the balance there. Some more tips on keeping a smile on a journalist’s face.

Greg Simpson

I would definitely put a smile on the face if you can, but if it’s not your personality, I wouldn’t do it. I wouldn’t try to go “oh, Greg said something about mocking their football team. I’ll do that”. And you don’t know the first thing about football, because it will unravel so so quickly. But there are things you can do in the same way. The timely thing is very, very important. So if I look at the feed that I look at every hour, and these things ping at me. It will normally say “looking for a comment from an interior designer on how to upcycle armchairs”. Right? That happened yesterday. The deadline was yesterday, 5pm. Now it may not be that the deadline for the copy is 5pm, the deadline for you to prove that you are useful and available and have an angle will be 5pm so you then go, they can go, “oh, look, this is a good one”. Yes, that’s good. Tell me more. So I would, I would always try to make sure it’s 5pm and I’ve done the copy as well, but this is what I do for a living, right? But I wouldn’t go, “oh, the deadline is 5pm I’ll get back to them tomorrow”, because that’s going to look like you didn’t bother to read the brief. You kind of came at it half assed. You wouldn’t be that bothered. You’re gonna have a go, again as if they were a client or a customer, they wouldn’t feel very special. So the way you can get around sometimes, because this relationship would be, you’d say, “Bill spotted your request. I’ve got something for you. I’m out right now at a show”. Building some intrigue is relevant, because they’ll go, “oh, what’s it?” You asked me, “What are behind me?”. Now, if I do have a genuine reason, but with a journalist, you can say, “I can’t get back to you until four. But here’s my initial take. Is that of interest? If so, I’ll crack on straight away”, and you can cut it as a holding pattern. So you’re getting on the radar rather than “I’ve got to get all 500 words out”. And it won’t be 500 words, it’ll be 200 Max. But you are trying to make sure that you are just nudging them enough to say, “I’m with you, I’m on it”. Now, don’t expect them to reply, but if you don’t email them to say that you’re on it. Why would they know? So why would you become a potential to them? 

Phil Bray

Flip that around. Give us a list of things that really annoys journalists.

Greg Simpson

Scott’s question about sensationalism as well. The thing about sensationalism is it’s great for a headline and the subject line. So if you imagine trying to attract the attention of a journalist getting hundreds, if not 1000s of emails in their inbox. You can make a sensationalist subject line, but especially in your industry, you’ve got to be able to back up what it is you’re saying. So I could go out and say anything frankly, but you need to be sure that, given your audience, it’s provable, even if it means that you sensationally disagree with something. So let’s say it was about something someone said at PMQs, or something the prime minister said. You can be as sensational as you want, because they said it. Fact. If you say that “the way this country is going means this, this isn’t held in handcart blah, blah, blah says, IFA”, you have to have it based on, bear in mind your audience. So things that annoy journalists are blind copy, because they know, “hi please find below” it’s like, “oh, I wonder how many other people that’s gone through”. So not feeling very special. Pitching someone something that they’ve never written about before, because it’s not their market. So I’m not going to pitch Cuba to someone on the FT who writes about house prices. But people will do this because they’ll see, “oh, look, they’re high end”. People who read the FT probably would like to go to Cuba. So it’s the right demographic. It’s like, may well be, but you don’t need Sarah. You need Sarah’s colleague, Julie. And if you did any research, you’d have found that, because if you could just Google Cuba, you’d have seen that Julie the FT writes about it, not Rachel gone on Sarah. The nag. There’s ways of nagging journalists and ways of not nagging journalists. So if I send the Cuba press release to one of these people this afternoon, they’ll go to people I know are right, now the journalists might be out of the office, and they don’t put “out of office” on because that’s not how they work. Some of them do, but they don’t, so don’t expect it. They are probably under a huge deadline that might be distracted. They might have something going on, their personal life. They might be on a holiday. They might not have any time to even view it. So if you go back the next day, “hi, Greg, did you get my piece on Cuba?” It’s like, “well, did it bounce back? So I did get it somewhere. It might have gone to spam, because the way you written, it was so bad, it instantly filtered”. But just saying, “did you get it?” isn’t very helpful. Whereas, “hi Greg, had a thought about the piece I wrote on Cuba, bearing in mind what you wrote about Buenos Aires, would it be helpful if I tweaked X to Y?”. Now you could play that game in advance, so if you play chess, I would already know what move it is I’m going to suggest, as my second follow up. So it’s not that I’ve just thought of it. I thought about it yesterday, but now I’m bringing it to the party as a gentle nudge, so it doesn’t appear that I’m nudging you, even though I’m nudging you, you might follow up with “hi Abi, with regards to Cuba, I sent a picture of certain sudden search. It’s portrait. Here it is in landscape. Might be better for you”, because again, I’m offering you something that’s useful rather than going “please use my stuff, even though. PS, please do use my stuff”. So it’s finding these ways to nudge nicely and be relevant. Depending on the research you’ve done on the journalist, I wouldn’t be trying to pitch Sunday Times on Friday afternoon, gonna be pretty busy. Monday morning, there’ll be an editorial meeting. Tuesday’s probably better. But again, if you’re doing this properly, you’re not just doing this just for your own firm, you don’t need to reach 1000s of people, or even hundreds of people. There’ll be 10 that you can surely take the time to think these are now my best friends in the media. I’m going to take the time and put it onto my CRM or whatever it is you’re using to look after your data, and they are going to become my little dossier, I’ve got my little red book. That’s where I’ve got my stuff. So I can now be really useful to these people. Not sending a picture or sending a stock shot. So again, given your everyone on the webinar, sorry if you’ve done this, but there are some websites I’ve seen where, look, “oh, look, there’s some men around the table leaning forward with interest”. Now, if men around the table are leaning forward with interest and you’re a table manufacturing company, I’m all good for that. But if you are a firm of IFA’s, and you send that “IFA warns of danger of X if y doesn’t happen”, and that’s your addition to the party, it looks like you can’t be bothered. It looks like you haven’t got a team that you said you did have when you clearly don’t, if that’s your stock shot, but you said you got 12 members of staff, so some lack of congruence there. It just looks lazy. So and again, if I’m juggling an inbox as a journalist, and I’ve got 20 stories and they’re all a bit the same, or I’ve got, let’s say, two, mortgage broker A and mortgage broker B, both are talking about how delighted they are to win an award, and the award is not competing with whichever magazine you’re putting you to, because sometimes awards are run by certain magazines titles. If broker A has got a picture of them underneath the logo going *smiles* and broker B has got them in a party mood out of an office. I’ll use the out of office shot, because it’s not an advert. Person underneath the logo is a thing for your blog, out of office, a bit more out of context, and you’re enjoying yourself, letting your hair down, maybe your bow tie around you. That is far more useful as a journalist. Now as your brand, you might be like, “oh, we can’t do that”. So as a journalist, I will use that more than I will do the logo one. 

Phil Bray  

I’ve had journalists. I’ve had advisers say to us, “can you ask the journalist if”, and there’s generally two things that they then fill the blanks in with.

Greg Simpson

Okay, I’m going to guess what one of them is. 

Phil Bray  

Copy approval for our compliance department. “Can we have a link to our website?” No, those two things annoy journalists.

Greg Simpson  

I’ve seen the copy approval thing with certain firms. They tend to be part of bigger firms. It won’t, it might happen. It might well jeopardise the fact that they whether going to run it or not now, because you’re now being a pain, and I know you’re being professional pain, and your team above you is going to come down like a ton of bricks unless you do get it, but don’t expect a journalist to go, “oh, excellent, yes. Let me just crack on with that right away”. No  if they do have the time, they might. But again, there’s copy approval and there’s copy editing. You don’t reserve the right to go, “you know what we said here, and you’ve phrased it like this. Can we change it like this? I know that would be an advert”. So as a journalist, I’m not sitting there to copy and paste the content you gave me. I’m looking at the content you gave me and going, “actually, that’s a really good point. I’m just going to rephrase it slightly without changing the meaning, because it’s not how we would say it here”. They are not duty bound to correct what you’re saying. Now, if it’s compliance and accuracy, that’s different, but don’t expect this “oh yeah, yeah. Let me get right onto that”. What’s your other question about that? Sorry. Oh, links. Yeah, you can ask for a link, but there was someone last year. It’s somewhere on my LinkedIn. Someone sent a really decent campaign, and they worked quite hard, and they got into The Times, and they ruined it by demanding a link, otherwise the journalists couldn’t use it. Now, do you think that a piece ever got used? No. How many people are doing that? Journalists told across The Times and across everyone on LinkedIn, because journalists are thick as thieves. Doesn’t matter. You know, where they work. They all go to the same conferences, same events. They hang out in the same places. They went to the same schools. They went to the same colleges and universities, you can ask for a link, because why wouldn’t you ask? But I would just put it in the copy somewhere. But if you ask for it, and when I send it, if it doesn’t get used, I’m not gonna throw my toys out the pram. Now, if you provide a link, and it’s genuinely useful, if you did a piece, about “eight out of 10 cats think this. And businesses in the north of England are more likely to do X than Y, whereas businesses in the south of England” this that the other, and you provide an infographic with that. Now that’s useful. But then, if you then said, “I’ll tell you what might be really helpful. You can take a look at the full research on our website”, because as a journalist, I’m never going to pull the full research into that article. I’m going to take the really interesting headlines and main pieces, but if I think “actually be useful for my readers or audience to know more, dive more, here’s where they go to” then you send them to that resource on your website, not to the homepage, not to the about us, not to the awards. You send it to that resource that you were referring to within the copy. 

Phil Bray

So much of what you’ve talked about in the first 36 minutes is about being useful isn’t it? Being useful to the journalist and being useful to the readers of the article that the journalist is writing.

Greg Simpson

Yeah, and that’s what all your marketing should be, though, as well. It should be useful. I mean  if you want to you can do exactly everything I ever tell you about PR, and anyone else who does PR for a living is any half good at marketing. It should all be out there. So you’re being useful. You’re being professionally useful, if you’re doing marketing in the way I believe marketing should be done, and it’s the same with the media, you’re being professionally useful. And the payoff is they go “thanks for that, perfect more than happy to quote you on that. Have you got a picture?” Yes. “Is it in front of a logo, smiling, looking boring?” Yes. “Have you got one of you walking the dog?” Yes, “I’ll use that one, if you don’t mind”. Yes. So I would always have this kind of collateral based on “here is me, you’ve got my standard portrait shot for this webinar”. But I could have certainly sent one of me walking the dog, and I probably would have done but I would always have versions of and if you think, “oh no, our audience is very much corporate, then don’t walk the dog shot”. But if it isn’t, and it’s only managed businesses, it tells you a little bit more about you as a firm if there’s a bit more you about it, a little bit less brand heavy”.

Phil Bray

That’s a great tip. Right, we’re going to talk about case studies in a minute. But Dan, what have we got in terms of comments and questions? 

Dan Campbell

So we’ve already spoken about Scott’s mention of sensationalism, which is a good one. Nick mentioned that’s just prompted them to follow Nottinghamshire Live on LinkedIn. So thanks for that. And then Nick also says this “phrase of who are my best friends in the media. It’s a good question to keep reminding you to do things”. Then we do have a question from Claire, actually. So Claire asks, “we’re thinking of having a press page on our website, but got stuck with whether we needed an NLA license because it’s quite costly”. What are your thoughts there Greg?

Greg Simpson  

You need an NLA license if you are copying coverage. So you don’t need to have a press page. The press page is all about you, if you’re talking about on your website, you want to show people where you’ve had coverage. I wouldn’t do it that way anyway. I haven’t got one here. I can’t reach it. Inside a magazine, which is Midlands B to B Mac. If I get my client inside a magazine, what I don’t want them to do is take a copy, take a photo. Click click. “Here we are”, and circle it with a little red round it and put that on the website. What you should do is hold up a copy of the magazine and go and put that on your blog and say “page 42 and I’m not sure what I was thinking when I wore that tie, but here’s what I have to say to Kurt”. Now I will now read what it was, because I want to know what you were doing. And you’re going to then go to the website and link into the where the copy is there, the article is there. So the NLA are very, very keen on following up with people, and it’s normally because basically, you’ve taken the article and put it on your real estate, rather than send people to their real estate or telling people to get a copy of it. So just don’t do that anyway. The best way of doing it, typically, to keep it nice and neat on the website, is just have the blog, one where you are genuinely excited, thumbs up. Or I would probably have the dog reading something, but I’d have their paw over it, so you can’t read the whole thing, but on the website itself, in your news page, you might say, “I’ve seen in” and then you take the logo of the title, and then you click that, it takes you the article that you’re referred to. Now, I know that you’re then losing the audience from your website to theirs, but you’re losing the eyeballs. I don’t care. Don’t cheat, don’t try to take stuff off people. And if by losing them, you’re sending them to an article in The Times, although by me, behind their paywall, or the FT, or wherever it is, you’re not losing, you’re gaining trust. You’re losing the audience for a moment. You’re showing them there they are. You can always open it in another tab anyway. 

Phil Bray

So you’re okay linking out from your website to the article on The Times, Telegraph and FT, because you’re giving them traffic. What you’re not okay doing is going, “we were in this and here it is. You can read it for free”, even though you’re not, didn’t mean to do that. They don’t care. They are seeing it as you’ve taken someone’s copy, even though it’s your words. It’s not your copy for something in their magazine, it’s not your copyright, it’s theirs. And you’re stopping that person going there and earning that publication an eyeball.

Phil Bray

You’re giving them a link and giving them the eyeball. That’s different.

Greg Simpson

Absolutely. And if you share on social, which you should do and like I refer to as “loverage”. So you leverage your coverage. So it’s love rich, just as I like making up words just as journalists love, because you are bringing a whole new audience to them. It’s the same way you get a guest post and someone like, “yeah, can we share this on our blog?” Yeah, absolutely.

Phil Bray  

If we use loverage, do we get a copyright infringement from Greg Simpson? Not yet you don’t. 

Phil Bray  

Right. Let’s talk about case studies. So I was on a panel with the editor of one of our trade presses and he said there’s two ways to get my attention. Tell me something I don’t know, give me a case study. Yeah. So let’s talk about case studies. Why are case studies so important to journalists?

Greg Simpson

In the same way that if you put the news on it, what’s the time? At 11 o’clock today, they have a story about job creation or job cuts somewhere, and they’re outside a factory. If they film outside the factory for the next 10 minutes, it’s not very interesting. If they spot people coming out of those factory gates and they ask their opinion, it’s now interesting and it’s provable. Otherwise it becomes just academic theory. And no one really wants to do a whole thing unless you’re in the pharmaceutical press. We’re not doing peer to peer, peer reviewed academic papers. We are trying to find what this, let’s say was legislation or a change in the way that the deposit levels that people are going to be able to take for mortgages, you can have your opinion on that and explain why this has happened, but it will add so much more to the story, if you can say, “when we work with Sue and John, a young couple buying their first house, their first question to us was this”, but you then you can’t make it up. You really want Sue and John’s picture as well. So Sue and John need to be along and signed up for this as well. So it’s part of the case studies thing is, you think journalists are asking for a case study. We haven’t got one. Well, you’re better off creating a case study library so that when journalists ask for them, you’ve got them. So you’re thinking way in advance, in the same way that if I nag you on day three, I know what I’m nagging with on day three, on day one. So I’m getting ahead of it, because it’s just marketing. So it’s when someone asks us for a first time buyer example, we’ve got one. We’ve got one guy on his own, one of the girl on her own, we’ve got one where the Bank of Mum and dad got involved, and we’ve got one where there was a divorce. This is quite a complex way of looking at it, but you want to cover as many bases as possible, so that you’re not scrabbling about and then going, “right, we’ve got this brilliant case study. I’ll send you the information here”. Journalist, “is this signed off by your client?” No, they won’t use it, or they use it, and your client gets annoyed, then you’re going, “well, give me a minute. I’ll email them now. Oh, they’re on holiday” and it’s stressful. The only way you avoid that is by in advance, preparing this, they’re signed off. “Do you agree, Phil, that we can use this case study in the press when appropriate?” Yes.

Phil Bray

And what are the expectations of journalists for people featured in the case studies? You mentioned one having a photo. What else? What else is generally expected of being featured?

Greg Simpson

They have a weird obsession with age. So you meant someone in your comments mentioned Nottingham Live, which is effectively the Nottingham Post to all intents and purposes, if they were to talk about a teacher from Southwell who did X, Y, Z as part of the charity run. Greg Simpson, 47, from Southwell. I don’t know why they do it, but they do it so don’t be surprised when people ask for ages, it just seems to be a thing. They want to know what the profession is of the people. And sometimes they’ll ask, do they have a family? Because it just adds color, because I could write a case study right now that, up to all intents and purposes, will be utterly believable on paper, and I’ll get a stock image of someone leaning over a table looking interested in some paperwork. But if I can add that story with the color of who they are, what they do, what they do on the weekends, and as a journalist, I get hold of that. It’s very ‘The Times’, if you think of it, at the front page of the home section of The Times, there is a family in the front of it. They’re talking about “how we went from X to Y and downsized, and then we spoke to our adviser, and our advisers suggested that we have this money in our pension. It was tired of doing this. It could do a lot more. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah”, all that stuff could be provided by that expert, that case study. But you need to know why they downsized, why they moved away, what they were doing originally, and Graham used to work at computing in the city, and all these  things add to the story of the human being.

Phil Bray 

I think we have a resident of Southwell on this webinar, so they’ll be able to put in here in the chat, whether it is Southwell. So I can’t remember whether you live there. You call it Southwell or South-well. And so case studies get ahead of the game, images, detail, sounds of those three things. And how do you know when a journalist is looking for a case study? How do you match your bank of case studies with what the journalist needs?

Greg Simpson  

By judicious stalking, back to that. It’s more the case that there are certain journalists. So because this seems like a really onerous task, if you’re doing what I’m doing, which is to lots of lots of people, it is. But this is my day job, so I have to do this all day. If you only have this dream list of 10 to 20 journalists, you can keep on top of it as part of your job, or part of your marketing team’s job is to follow what these journalists are after and what they need, so you can be pretty real, like on it. You’re just trying to find ways that “how can we make this as easy as possible?”, really and working out what they need and when, with the case studies like I would ask them as well. “Hi, Jason. I saw that your piece here is the feature case study for you, just so I can prepare better and ask, when we look at our marketing for the year, year ahead, what would really be helpful?” And then the journalist is like, “oh my God, thank you for asking”. What really bugs me is when people do this, they say we won’t do that. 

Phil Bray

And I guess once you’ve developed a reputation of supplying a couple of case studies in the right format, the right way, they’re interesting with images, you then become that trusted source of case studies as well as for comment. 

Greg Simpson

Yeah, you want to be the person who they go, “you know what? Haven’t got time for messing about with this. I’m not going to put it out on Twitter. I need this now. I’m just going to call Greg”. This is how PR people, why PPR, PR people exist. We are basically a broker between the journalist and the client, and we make things a heck a lot easier for them. So in house, you just have to become that person who makes things a heck a lot easier for that journalist. The payoff being you get stuff. 

Phil Bray 

And let’s talk about, we’ve talked a lot about getting the press. And I just want to talk about how you PR the PR, the leverage point, which we’ll come back to in a minute. You’ve been to the stars. I’ve seen your picture with a lot of people that are well known. 

Greg Simpson

Someone tried to copy my Instagram last week because to try to nick my pictures, which I found amazing.

Phil Bray

Nick your pictures?

Greg Simpson  

Yeah, they’ve taken my pictures off Instagram and tried to create, like a version of me, because they want to have pictures of Stephen Bartlett on their Instagram. 

Phil Bray  

Well the two names that really caught my attention from a PR perspective, were Richard Branson and Piers Morgan, slightly diverse characters. Tips from the stars, Branson and Piers Morgan around PR, what would you say? 

Greg Simpson

Well, I chaired a press conference for Branson many years back, and he’s incredibly human for a start. There’s like 80 journalists here, and he sat back like this. I mean, he’s pretty casual with it, because he knows they are there for him. But at no point did he try to sound and trot out the Virgin line. So he was Richard Branson now in an era of personal brand and AI, it pays to be more high than ever. So it’s all very well going “here at such and such a way blah blah blah”, it’s like, “oh no, that’s not going to work”. So Branson will probably have, I don’t know, 1000s times 1000s more followers than Virgin ever does. I need to check that. But if you look at someone like Stephen Bartlett, Daniel Priestley. Daniel Priestley has got more followers of Daniel Priestley than Dent, because he’s Daniel, but you work with Dent, you don’t often work with Daniel, but Daniel’s the person who’s going to come across on the camera. So Branson’s thing is obviously being a personal brand. He encourages you to think in pictures. Now he doesn’t say that. I don’t think so. That’s a journalist I worked with years ago from the Nottingham Post, actually, you think in pictures. So I think in headlines. When a client tells me that “we’ve grown the team we’re going to take on these people”, I’m already thinking “how are we going to make a little pun around that?” Because that’s what’s going to go in the inbox on the subject line. But then the next level up there is thinking of pictures, which is again, I keep coming back to this stock shot of people sat around the table looking interested. “Does this picture, if I glance at it, tell me what this story is about?” Because if I’m selling a newspaper, magazine or clicks online, I want someone to go, “oh, what’s that about then?” And if you can get them to go, “oh what’s that about, then?” they will then read the story, and it’s the head turning thing. Or if I’m sat next to you on a train, and you’re not eating your crisp too loudly, so I haven’t had to move. I’ll look over your shoulder to see what you’re eating. Like, “what’s that?” And that’s the highway that, if you can get a journalist to go, “oh, I tell you what, people look at that”. And I know in your industry here that it’s not going to be “we’re all out there in hot air balloons or with jet skiing on the water”. But what would be your version of that, if you win an award? What is your version of that, versus that? So it’s trying to think that way. And Piers Morgan, weirdly enough, the first business event post lockdown, live event. I was at it, and I was speaking just before Piers Morgan, and I wasn’t sure what to make of him, and I’m still not sure what to make of him, but he did make a load of good points. And funnily enough, the best point he made was useful, whether he takes his own advice or not, I’m not sure. Was to admit it, say sorry and move on. Do not keep digging. Don’t try to obfuscate. Don’t try to hide. Journalists are far better at you getting to the truth than you are hiding it. If you’ve done something he can try and say, “yeah, well, that’s all bad. Actually, we’re better than this. We’ve taken the lessons on board. We’ve improved it. This is how we’ve improved it, and now this is how we’re gonna go hard, go ahead from here on”, so you don’t start going “no, not me, not me”.

Phil Bray  

Yeah, I’ve heard Scott Galloway talk about that in a very, very similar, similar way. So really useful tips from Branson and Piers Morgan, unusual source, perhaps. And let’s just do the last three or four minutes to wrap up, Greg, around promoting your press coverage. And all too often, I’ve spoken to advisers who have been quoted really brilliantly in The Personal Finance at the weekend and they’ve come in on a Monday morning and expected their inbox to be full of leads and people demanding their services. Doesn’t happen. Doesn’t work that way. What are your key tips for PR’ing the PR, or giving it loverage, as you talked about?

Greg Simpson

So again, because I will be thinking in terms of marketing. If I know that, I’m going to probably be quoted at some point in the next five days. I’ve already done in my head what the blog is, what the social media post is, what my piece to camera will be. Without showing you the article, I would go, “I’ve just come in today, and I found this, which I’m really proud of, because I’ve been following Bob for many, many years, and he wanted to ask me about this, and you can find out more There’s a copy”, so I would have it already planned what I’m going to be doing, but I do know that lots of people do get the commission and then they wait for the phones to ring and for people to be knocking their doors. These people are often the people who do no other marketing as well. So they go, “oh yes”, so what I’ll say, “what marketing do you do?” when someone tries to work with me. “Well, we’ve had a bash at socials, and we did a podcast, and we run events. So we thought we’d try PR” like, why aren’t you doing all these things together? Because if you did all these things at sort of 25% rather than 100% of all this, and all our eggs in one basket, the accumulation of everything working together will be far better. So you do the event, and you blog about the event, and you write about the event. You do the lead magnet from the event based on the information you had. You take this information from the lead magnet, and you create a story based on that. That’s like an integrated campaign. And then you’ve got the podcast where you’re talking about the webinar, where you can discover more too many people do this whole magic bullet theory of marketing, which is, “saw this great chap on a webinar chat to Phil at The Yardstick Agency, PRs obviously the solution will stop all this, and we’ll just start reaching out to the media”. Don’t do that. Do a bit of this and do more of this as well. And people will do if I get a client in, let’s say I’ll use insider again as a reference. So B to B magazine here in the Midlands, a copy of it is £4.50. Officially. I don’t know what it is, if you ask them for more, if you’re in there and you’ve done this, you’ve done a social post, and you’ve done the blog about it, and you’ve linked to it on the website, why wouldn’t you, based on your average customer value over six months, 12 months, three years, however long you have them, pay £5 to go and get a copy of it. Get a post it note. Put the post it note on the front of it and say, “page 14 not so sure about my shoes today, but a good point I thought” smiley face. Put that in an envelope, red, blue, yellow, whatever color. Don’t put it in white. Don’t frank it. Put a stamp on it, make it human, and hand write it to your absolute key dream customers. And people go, “sounds like a lot of effort”. It’s like, yeah, it does, doesn’t it? Compared to not bothering, but your customer average value, you just told me, was £32,000, and you can’t be bothered to spend six quid sending a brochure in the post. What this becomes, this coverage becomes a brochure. Now, you don’t send the whole magazine, I would, because they might want to read it. Might be useful to them, but you can do like a, you know, a tear sheet version of it. There are things you can do that people just think “that’s lovely, but it sounds a bit of a faff”. It’s like it probably does sound a bit of a faff, but when you moan about why this firm seems to always do better than you do, or why their marketing is better than yours, it’s maybe because they do faff a bit. But they faff with a plan, rather than going “yeah, we’re all over podcasts now that’s all we’re going to do.

Phil Bray

I think that that handwritten point there is the last of 56 minutes worth of value that you’ve delivered to everybody on this webinar today Greg. I think there’s so many top tips, both at strategic level and tactical. Do this, do this, handwritten all that sort of stuff. So thank you so much. Abi is now going to talk about the next couple of webinars, and then we’ll just wrap up any final questions. So if you’ve got any final questions for Greg, please go and pop your questions into the chat. And I’m going the wrong way on this presentation. We need to go there. Abi, talk about the next two webinars that we’ve got coming up in October. If you wouldn’t mind. 

Abi Robinson

Yeah, of course. Thanks, Phil, and Thanks Greg. Yes, I wish I’d known all that when I was going for some press coverage back in March, because I might have done a bit better than page three of the Rotherham Advertiser. So see if I can upgrade next time. Because it’s not my finest hour. 

Greg Simpson

It’s on page three. There’s so much social fun you could have had with that Abi. 

Abi Robinson

It’s me and my stepdad. It’s not the place you want to be, really not. So what can you do? I’ll use your tips. I’ll see if I can get in Sheffield Star next time. But all good. Yes, the next webinars. So we’ve got two next month. We’ve got a bit of a bumper week, the second week of October, but we think for very good reason. So the first webinar is, we’re getting Marcus back and his fellow co-founder, Steve Auchettl, and this is to talk about both a new tool and the value of fees pages. Because although we know that consumers want their advisers and planners to disclose fees. Only 14% of firms do it, we found. So we want to have a chat about why we think disclosing fees are so important, what you need to include on that page, but also a brand new tool that we’re really excited to be launching in the UK, with the help of Marcus and Steve at PriceGuide and how you can get involved and have that added to your website. So that’s on the 14th at 2pm because I imagine they’re coming to us from across the pond. And the next one is just us, I say just us, But this is going to be a Yardstick solo the day after Wednesday 15th normal time 10am and this is where I know it’s only September, not going to use the C word, what we are thinking about next year, and it makes sense to start thinking about it now. So we’ve done a lot of chatter the last few months about how impressing robots is now equally as important as impressing humans on their way to your door. So this is going to be a conversation about how social proof is going to help you get there. Why it impresses both AI and the clients that you want to work with and start thinking ahead to next year and getting your plans in place. So the QR codes are obviously there, but as Dan said, I’ll be sending out the follow up a little bit later on, with a couple of really useful resources that Greg shared with me earlier, as well all the links to sign up for these webinars, so if you’ve missed it now, you’ll get it again later. But yes, thank you Phil, and thank you again, Greg. That was really, really useful.

Phil Bray 

Cheers Abi, and in the follow up, we’ll put Greg’s website, LinkedIn profile, etc, but they’re on the screen now. Let’s wrap up with a couple of last cut questions. Dan, I think we’ve got one that relates to Nottingham Live and Nigel Farage.

Dan Campbell  

So let’s have a look. So first of all, got a really good point by Scott that says “my immediate thought when I get quoted anywhere is great. That’s my next bit of social media content sorted. Why try and write something brand new when you can have something you can point to and say, look at this?”. So a really good point there. And then a question from Nick that says, “so, apart from panning their journalists, how do we get in the post slash Notts Live?” And if there’s one thing I’ve gleaned from this webinar, is, if you’ve got a dog, you’ve got an advantage. But I’m sure Greg can put it a bit more poetically. 

Greg Simpson

Well, if you have a goldfish, you may have an advantage. If the journalist you’re after likes goldfish, so it’s horses for courses, or goldfish for whatever rhymes with goldfish. It’s, again someone said on the group chat somewhere, I’m now following Nottingham Live on LinkedIn, which is great. I would follow the journalists Nottinghamshire Live on LinkedIn as well. Now not all of them are in there, because journalists are here between LinkedIn or Twitter, I wouldn’t start looking, depending on your audience, at maybe Instagram, maybe, but you’re really looking at LinkedIn, but I would always try to treat them as this person first. They happen to be Nottinghamshire Live. So hone down there. Find out what it is that floats their boat. Read the stuff that they’re writing about right now, and work out where you genuinely could add value. Not “would be really good if Bob would feature me”, so it would, but would it be good for Bob? So I would also be tempted, Nottinghamshire Live do go to events as well, so if it’s really important for you to be there, why wouldn’t you be there as well? If they’re part of an event, there’s an economic forum or something like that, and you were in that market, I’d be in that room as well, and I’d say “hello”, because at the end of the day, without being weird and stalky, you could just go up and you say “hi” and prove you a human being, rather than one of many million people who email them every day ranting about potholes. If that was your question, Nick about potholes, it probably wasn’t.

Phil Bray  

Greg, thank you so much. We’ve taken some interesting turns today, from Rotherham Echo, or whatever it was on page three, to Piers Morgan, goldfish, dogs. We’ve covered a lot, but I think there’s just so much value in that hour. So much practical, tactical advice that people can take away and start actioning this very afternoon. Greg, thank you very much. 

Greg Simpson

Pleasure.

Phil Bray

I really appreciate it. Hope your filming goes well this afternoon. Dan, Abi, thank you as always, we’ll see everybody next month for two sessions. Cheers guys. Bye, bye.

Greg Simpson

Bye.

Dan Campbell

Bye.